The current state of the EV market - not great, Bob!

[Oliver]

It's been a tough year for EVs. The end of the $7500 tax credit in the U.S. isn't helping.

I still think that the post-COVID inflation is largely to blame for the EV market basically grinding to a halt.

Cancellations and discontinuations

Acura ZDX: In production since March 2024, production ended last month after a single model year. Sales numbers didn't seem terrible but perhaps they had big incentives to achieve that.

Nissan Ariya: Went on sale as a 2023 model, canceled last month. Nissan seems to be focusing its EV efforts on the new Leaf

Ram REV: Originally supposed to go on sale in 2024, the fully electric REV was delayed three times before being canceled last month. The REV name will now be used on the Ramcharger hybrid truck, which itself has also been delayed multiple times.

Dodge Charger Daytona: With miserable sales numbers the base R/T has been canceled leaving just the Scat Pack model. The 1000 hp Banshee model that was in development has been canceled as well.

Genesis G80: Discontinued in August after being on the market for three years.

VW ID.7: Ostensibly the replacement for the Passat and sold in Europe, its North American launch was canceled in January.

Maserati MC20 Folgore: Dead before it ever arrived.

Nissan/Infiniti sedans: Supposed to be built in the U.S. but canceled earlier this year.

Honda CUVs: In July Honda canceled two EV crossovers, which were to ostensibly complement the Pilot and Passport.

Mercedes-Benz large EV platform: A second generation EV platform designed for the next generation EQE and EQS models was canceled.

Return of ICE

Porsche 718: The EV replacement has been delayed and will now launch after the Cayenne EV and Porsche has relented and now says that top versions of the new 718 will offer ICE powertrains.

Porsche Macan: An ICE replacement is coming in 2028, based on the new Audi Q5

Porsche K1: Originally intended to be an EV three row crossover, it was reported last month that it will instead be offered with ICE and PHEV powertrains.

Deep Discounts

Polestar 3: In Canada there is currently a $20k lease or purchase credit on the 3, and they're advertising a $660/month, 12 month lease on them – insane for a six figure car.

[Johnnymac]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

The early adopters are learning about the deficiencies of owning an EV and when they go to sell or trade in their EV they realize just how little they are worth used.

Can't say I'm shocked.

[Oliver]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.

[RRocket]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.

I still don't think EVs are that compelling with all their downsides. So the average person has little interest and need convincing.

Which is why you need incentives/bribery to help move them.

[Tortoise]

I dunno, I think a lot of people would appreciate not having to go to a gas station, be able to pre-heat, etc. I also think the cost relative to a gas equivalent is the biggest reason people aren't buying them. 

I would happily have a EV as it would work for 90+% of our driving.  But, it couldn't be our only car. What I really want is a PHEV.

[Johnnymac]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.

That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people. 

A lot of EVs sold are done so at a loss to the manufacturer, they can't make them any cheaper.

[Oliver]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.

That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people.

The difference is that we were never promised a cheap 911, but we were told that there would be affordable EVs. Then COVID-era inflation hit all vehicles. Someone who might have stretched their budget to $40k from $30k in order to get an EV now has to contend with the fact that the ICE equivalent might be over that $40k budget, and the EV is now over $50k.

[Johnnymac]

The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.

Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.

That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people.

The difference is that we were never promised a cheap 911, but we were told that there would be affordable EVs. Then COVID-era inflation hit all vehicles. Someone who might have stretched their budget to $40k from $30k in order to get an EV now has to contend with the fact that the ICE equivalent might be over that $40k budget, and the EV is now over $50k.

Do I think there is a demand for cheap EV, yes, do I also think there is demand for a cheap ICE vehicle, also yes.

Again, saying that the reason they aren't selling is because of price that just doesn't seem true.  For one, loads of vehicles sell for the same $$ amount of EV, yet people buy ICE vehicles instead, for two, if demand for cheap EVs were so high, it would bear out in the used market....oh wait, used EVs are a much harder sell than ICE equivalent.

People need to accept that the TRUE demand for EVs has pretty much been met.  There is no lack of supply in the new or used market and yet the vast majority just linger on lots until huge incentives are given. 

[Blueprint]

I'd say pricing - for all vehicles, in general - is the main culprit. The HR-V I'm reviewing next week is $42k. The return of a warmed-over Bolt and priced-right Leaf are good news, but everything is getting too expensive. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.

[RRocket]

I dunno, I think a lot of people would appreciate not having to go to a gas station, be able to pre-heat, etc. I also think the cost relative to a gas equivalent is the biggest reason people aren't buying them. 

I would happily have a EV as it would work for 90+% of our driving.  But, it couldn't be our only car. What I really want is a PHEV.

You need to own a house. That's the first issue towards ownership IMO.

[RRocket]

. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.

Am growing a bit weary of young people crying about housing market. IMO, it was far harder when I bought my house. People forget in the early 90s unemployment was nearly 12 percent, prime interest rates double digits and minimum wage about $5/hr.

I mention minimum wage because that was a big chunk of my downpayment savings when I bought my house...minimum wage/odd jobs from 10 years old to 20 years old (or so) until I finally got my first "real" job. My minimum wage jobs while I lived at home were some of my prime saving years because I had no bills.

When I do the math today, home ownership isn't any more difficult IMO.

[Revelations]

$30K off the ID Buzz. Seeing the usual onslaught of new EV's on the auction network. Dealers hoping another dealer has a better chance at selling one I guess.

[Oliver]

. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.

Am growing a bit weary of young people crying about housing market. IMO, it was far harder when I bought my house. People forget in the early 90s unemployment was nearly 12 percent, prime interest rates double digits and minimum wage about $5/hr.

I mention minimum wage because that was a big chunk of my downpayment savings when I bought my house...minimum wage/odd jobs from 10 years old to 20 years old (or so) until I finally got my first "real" job. My minimum wage jobs while I lived at home were some of my prime saving years because I had no bills.

When I do the math today, home ownership isn't any more difficult IMO.

That might be how you feel, but most of the data says otherwise.

[RRocket]

That might be how you feel, but most of the data says otherwise.

The data I see shows minimum wage being 70 percent higher now than when I was younger..and that even accounts for inflation.

I had nearly 6,000 hours of minimum wage saved up as part of my house downpaynent.

IQ bought a brand new car with 2,400 hours of minimum wages saved.

Do the math using today's minimum wage. The data and math doesn't lie: For sure you're owning a far, far better car than she bought with 2,400 hours.

And home ownership wouldn't be "impossible" either with a 6,000 hour head start at current minimum wage. (excluding the bonkers markets like Toronto, Vancouver, which I could never afford back then either)

Either way requires hard work and sacrifice (and some shitty jobs!) but you aren't going to convince me it's impossible.

[Oliver]

Sounds like VW is delaying the pure BEV Scouts in favor of the range extended models: https://www.theautopian.com/scout-to-reportedly-build-hybrid-trucks-first/