It's been a tough year for EVs. The end of the $7500 tax credit in the U.S. isn't helping.
I still think that the post-COVID inflation is largely to blame for the EV market basically grinding to a halt.
Cancellations and discontinuations
Acura ZDX: In production since March 2024, production ended last month after a single model year. Sales numbers didn't seem terrible but perhaps they had big incentives to achieve that.
Nissan Ariya: Went on sale as a 2023 model, canceled last month. Nissan seems to be focusing its EV efforts on the new Leaf
Ram REV: Originally supposed to go on sale in 2024, the fully electric REV was delayed three times before being canceled last month. The REV name will now be used on the Ramcharger hybrid truck, which itself has also been delayed multiple times.
Dodge Charger Daytona: With miserable sales numbers the base R/T has been canceled leaving just the Scat Pack model. The 1000 hp Banshee model that was in development has been canceled as well.
Genesis G80: Discontinued in August after being on the market for three years.
VW ID.7: Ostensibly the replacement for the Passat and sold in Europe, its North American launch was canceled in January.
Maserati MC20 Folgore: Dead before it ever arrived.
Nissan/Infiniti sedans: Supposed to be built in the U.S. but canceled earlier this year.
Honda CUVs: In July Honda canceled two EV crossovers, which were to ostensibly complement the Pilot and Passport.
Mercedes-Benz large EV platform: A second generation EV platform designed for the next generation EQE and EQS models was canceled.
Return of ICE
Porsche 718: The EV replacement has been delayed and will now launch after the Cayenne EV and Porsche has relented and now says that top versions of the new 718 will offer ICE powertrains.
Porsche Macan: An ICE replacement is coming in 2028, based on the new Audi Q5
Porsche K1: Originally intended to be an EV three row crossover, it was reported last month that it will instead be offered with ICE and PHEV powertrains.
Deep Discounts
Polestar 3: In Canada there is currently a $20k lease or purchase credit on the 3, and they're advertising a $660/month, 12 month lease on them – insane for a six figure car.
The demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
The early adopters are learning about the deficiencies of owning an EV and when they go to sell or trade in their EV they realize just how little they are worth used.
Can't say I'm shocked.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 09, 2025, 05:13 PMThe demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 09, 2025, 05:55 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 09, 2025, 05:13 PMThe demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.
I still don't think EVs are that compelling with all their downsides. So the average person has little interest and need convincing.
Which is why you need incentives/bribery to help move them.
I dunno, I think a lot of people would appreciate not having to go to a gas station, be able to pre-heat, etc. I also think the cost relative to a gas equivalent is the biggest reason people aren't buying them.
I would happily have a EV as it would work for 90+% of our driving. But, it couldn't be our only car. What I really want is a PHEV.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 09, 2025, 05:55 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 09, 2025, 05:13 PMThe demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.
That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people.
A lot of EVs sold are done so at a loss to the manufacturer, they can't make them any cheaper.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 10, 2025, 09:56 AMQuote from: Oliver on Oct 09, 2025, 05:55 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 09, 2025, 05:13 PMThe demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.
That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people.
The difference is that we were never promised a cheap 911, but we were told that there would be affordable EVs. Then COVID-era inflation hit all vehicles. Someone who might have stretched their budget to $40k from $30k in order to get an EV now has to contend with the fact that the ICE equivalent might be over that $40k budget, and the EV is now over $50k.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 10, 2025, 03:07 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 10, 2025, 09:56 AMQuote from: Oliver on Oct 09, 2025, 05:55 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 09, 2025, 05:13 PMThe demand was always heavily inflated, those that want and EV have them and those that don't aren't converting.
Eh, I don't think that's really true. Many if not most of the EVs currently on the market were teased at prices that were much lower than where they ended up. I think there's still plenty of interest in EVs, people just don't want to pay the current asking prices.
That's like saying there is a lot of interest in a Porsche 911 but it's just too much for most people.
The difference is that we were never promised a cheap 911, but we were told that there would be affordable EVs. Then COVID-era inflation hit all vehicles. Someone who might have stretched their budget to $40k from $30k in order to get an EV now has to contend with the fact that the ICE equivalent might be over that $40k budget, and the EV is now over $50k.
Do I think there is a demand for cheap EV, yes, do I also think there is demand for a cheap ICE vehicle, also yes.
Again, saying that the reason they aren't selling is because of price that just doesn't seem true. For one, loads of vehicles sell for the same $$ amount of EV, yet people buy ICE vehicles instead, for two, if demand for cheap EVs were so high, it would bear out in the used market....oh wait, used EVs are a much harder sell than ICE equivalent.
People need to accept that the TRUE demand for EVs has pretty much been met. There is no lack of supply in the new or used market and yet the vast majority just linger on lots until huge incentives are given.
I'd say pricing - for all vehicles, in general - is the main culprit. The HR-V I'm reviewing next week is $42k. The return of a warmed-over Bolt and priced-right Leaf are good news, but everything is getting too expensive. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.
Quote from: Tortoise on Oct 10, 2025, 08:15 AMI dunno, I think a lot of people would appreciate not having to go to a gas station, be able to pre-heat, etc. I also think the cost relative to a gas equivalent is the biggest reason people aren't buying them.
I would happily have a EV as it would work for 90+% of our driving. But, it couldn't be our only car. What I really want is a PHEV.
You need to own a house. That's the first issue towards ownership IMO.
Quote from: Blueprint on Oct 11, 2025, 10:20 AM. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.
Am growing a bit weary of young people crying about housing market. IMO, it was far harder when I bought my house. People forget in the early 90s unemployment was nearly 12 percent, prime interest rates double digits and minimum wage about $5/hr.
I mention minimum wage because that was a big chunk of my downpayment savings when I bought my house...minimum wage/odd jobs from 10 years old to 20 years old (or so) until I finally got my first "real" job. My minimum wage jobs while I lived at home were some of my prime saving years because I had no bills.
When I do the math today, home ownership isn't any more difficult IMO.
$30K off the ID Buzz. Seeing the usual onslaught of new EV's on the auction network. Dealers hoping another dealer has a better chance at selling one I guess.
Quote from: RRocket on Oct 11, 2025, 07:01 PMQuote from: Blueprint on Oct 11, 2025, 10:20 AM. Same with housing. Everybody's crying we lack housing. Montreal has a bunch of unsold new condos downtown. These entry-level cardboard high-rises are just too expensive for the avg Jane/Joe. There is housing - but one must pay the builder to get to it. We've sailed past $200k homes like we sailed past $20k cars, but people still cry foul because perception and wages aren't following.
Am growing a bit weary of young people crying about housing market. IMO, it was far harder when I bought my house. People forget in the early 90s unemployment was nearly 12 percent, prime interest rates double digits and minimum wage about $5/hr.
I mention minimum wage because that was a big chunk of my downpayment savings when I bought my house...minimum wage/odd jobs from 10 years old to 20 years old (or so) until I finally got my first "real" job. My minimum wage jobs while I lived at home were some of my prime saving years because I had no bills.
When I do the math today, home ownership isn't any more difficult IMO.
That might be how you feel, but most of the data says otherwise.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 13, 2025, 11:43 AMThat might be how you feel, but most of the data says otherwise.
The data I see shows minimum wage being 70 percent higher now than when I was younger..and that even accounts for inflation.
I had nearly 6,000 hours of minimum wage saved up as part of my house downpaynent.
IQ bought a brand new car with 2,400 hours of minimum wages saved.
Do the math using today's minimum wage. The data and math doesn't lie: For sure you're owning a far, far better car than she bought with 2,400 hours.
And home ownership wouldn't be "impossible" either with a 6,000 hour head start at current minimum wage. (excluding the bonkers markets like Toronto, Vancouver, which I could never afford back then either)
Either way requires hard work and sacrifice (and some shitty jobs!) but you aren't going to convince me it's impossible.
Sounds like VW is delaying the pure BEV Scouts in favor of the range extended models: https://www.theautopian.com/scout-to-reportedly-build-hybrid-trucks-first/
This is a bad sign as well https://www.cnn.com/2025/10/22/business/car-payments-late-default-subprime
Was the new VW EV van thingy supposed to be some crazy sought after vehicle? Looks like all the hype was from a small group of buyer who now have theirs and the rest will linger with massive discounts and 0% financing.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is our near future?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1ZFPdFUgEY/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 24, 2025, 06:39 PMWas the new VW EV van thingy supposed to be some crazy sought after vehicle? Looks like all the hype was from a small group of buyer who now have theirs and the rest will linger with massive discounts and 0% financing.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is our near future?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1ZFPdFUgEY/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Dkaz was looking at one...did he ever buy?
Looks like the Lightning truck is buying the farm......
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-end-production-failed-f-141523184.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALSx2fXNw-A2jrr8V6ed8HR9w40Sr5IOfc4RVdiiL936n200C0ImALnUEJQ2C9NxLMxPWzp_ukiAbWQflollfdRWQCQAYbF8o6bWvHIqpiZoWkX6ruf_e_Y0tdjp2PbNEg7a6bcsf3o2oo7FASxQsdrfqeLiBDyp16Ugoym4XCxO
I've seen them for under $60k in Quebec.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 24, 2025, 06:39 PMWas the new VW EV van thingy supposed to be some crazy sought after vehicle? Looks like all the hype was from a small group of buyer who now have theirs and the rest will linger with massive discounts and 0% financing.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is our near future?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1ZFPdFUgEY/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Quote from: Revelations on Oct 25, 2025, 02:18 PMLooks like the Lightning truck is buying the farm......
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-end-production-failed-f-141523184.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALSx2fXNw-A2jrr8V6ed8HR9w40Sr5IOfc4RVdiiL936n200C0ImALnUEJQ2C9NxLMxPWzp_ukiAbWQflollfdRWQCQAYbF8o6bWvHIqpiZoWkX6ruf_e_Y0tdjp2PbNEg7a6bcsf3o2oo7FASxQsdrfqeLiBDyp16Ugoym4XCxO
Not shocked.
Quote from: Revelations on Oct 25, 2025, 02:18 PMLooks like the Lightning truck is buying the farm......
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-end-production-failed-f-141523184.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALSx2fXNw-A2jrr8V6ed8HR9w40Sr5IOfc4RVdiiL936n200C0ImALnUEJQ2C9NxLMxPWzp_ukiAbWQflollfdRWQCQAYbF8o6bWvHIqpiZoWkX6ruf_e_Y0tdjp2PbNEg7a6bcsf3o2oo7FASxQsdrfqeLiBDyp16Ugoym4XCxO
That article seems a bit sensational. Ford has not definitively said that the Lightning is discontinued - just that production is being paused for now.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 26, 2025, 01:30 PMQuote from: Revelations on Oct 25, 2025, 02:18 PMLooks like the Lightning truck is buying the farm......
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-end-production-failed-f-141523184.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALSx2fXNw-A2jrr8V6ed8HR9w40Sr5IOfc4RVdiiL936n200C0ImALnUEJQ2C9NxLMxPWzp_ukiAbWQflollfdRWQCQAYbF8o6bWvHIqpiZoWkX6ruf_e_Y0tdjp2PbNEg7a6bcsf3o2oo7FASxQsdrfqeLiBDyp16Ugoym4XCxO
That article seems a bit sensational. Ford has not definitively said that the Lightning is discontinued - just that production is being paused for now.
Reason being that Ford is screwed after the plant of its main aluminium parts supplier went up in flames. What they can get will go to more profitable models, but F-150 sales overall are going down the drain.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 24, 2025, 06:39 PMWas the new VW EV van thingy supposed to be some crazy sought after vehicle? Looks like all the hype was from a small group of buyer who now have theirs and the rest will linger with massive discounts and 0% financing.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is our near future?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1ZFPdFUgEY/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Another car that ended up being $20k more than expected once it finally arrived. It was never going to be more than a niche vehicle but the pricing really killed it. Didn't help that they flubbed the launch by building too many in boring monotone colors. In the U.S. they were paying dealers to wrap them for customers.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 28, 2025, 08:31 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Oct 24, 2025, 06:39 PMWas the new VW EV van thingy supposed to be some crazy sought after vehicle? Looks like all the hype was from a small group of buyer who now have theirs and the rest will linger with massive discounts and 0% financing.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is our near future?
https://www.facebook.com/share/1ZFPdFUgEY/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Another car that ended up being $20k more than expected once it finally arrived. It was never going to be more than a niche vehicle but the pricing really killed it. Didn't help that they flubbed the launch by building too many in boring monotone colors. In the U.S. they were paying dealers to wrap them for customers.
Talking about the price, I bet they don't make much at all selling them. With the level of hype and media coverage, the demand seemed crazy, much like the Ford Lightning, but after that initial rush, demand dried up. It's just how EVs have been.
Toyota's thinking is much better, produce a lot more hybrids and PHEV that will have a greater overall impact for the environment, easily adopted by traditional car buyers, and at a reasonable price difference over their ICE equivalent.
I was at a GM event last evening, and they confirmed what we were seeing in the sales numbers: by far, the Lyriq is the best-selling Cadillac product in Canada, with the Optiq close on its heels and some months actually beating it. Supply is the Optiq's only real limit as far as sales go, according to the GM reps. They are indeed all over the place in the GMA. So some EVs are doing better than others!
Quote from: Blueprint on Oct 29, 2025, 08:38 AMI was at a GM event last evening, and they confirmed what we were seeing in the sales numbers: by far, the Lyriq is the best-selling Cadillac product in Canada, with the Optiq close on its heels and some months actually beating it. Supply is the Optiq's only real limit as far as sales go, according to the GM reps. They are indeed all over the place in the GMA. So some EVs are doing better than others!
Still seems insane to me that they are discontinuing the XT4 right after a fairly significant mid cycle refresh though.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Oct 28, 2025, 05:59 PMToyota's thinking is much better, produce a lot more hybrids and PHEV that will have a greater overall impact for the environment, easily adopted by traditional car buyers, and at a reasonable price difference over their ICE equivalent.
Toyota got a lot of shit a few years ago for resisting electrification beyond hybrids. In hindsight it was probably the right move.
Quote from: Oliver on Oct 29, 2025, 12:15 PMQuote from: Blueprint on Oct 29, 2025, 08:38 AMI was at a GM event last evening, and they confirmed what we were seeing in the sales numbers: by far, the Lyriq is the best-selling Cadillac product in Canada, with the Optiq close on its heels and some months actually beating it. Supply is the Optiq's only real limit as far as sales go, according to the GM reps. They are indeed all over the place in the GMA. So some EVs are doing better than others!
Still seems insane to me that they are discontinuing the XT4 right after a fairly significant mid cycle refresh though.
Long-standing tradition at GM to shelf a just-improved product ::)
The Lightning is officially dead, as noted in the other thread. Ford has also the an EV full-size van in favor of a hybrid version of the next Transit.
Porsche says it is now working on ICE versions of the new 718 EV, which seems like a big challenge since the battery pack is a structural part of the platform and contributes to a very low CoG and they don't want to compromise the ICE version.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-gen-porsche-718-evs-being-reworked-petrol-power
Quote from: Oliver on Dec 16, 2025, 08:53 AMThe Lightning is officially dead, as noted in the other thread. Ford has also the an EV full-size van in favor of a hybrid version of the next Transit.
They are reworking the Lightning into a "Ramcharger", adding an ICE engine to act as a generator. So expect the frunk to go away.
Funny enough, I was picking up a press car yesterday morning and a Ford PR person was there to loan a shiny black '25 Lightning to a winter olympic athlete Ford sponsors.
Add the ID Buzz to the death list.....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/electric-cars/vw-cancels-id-buzz-for-2026-as-dealers-warn-it-might-be-over/ar-AA1SGxkC?ocid=BingNewsVerp
Quote from: Revelations on Dec 19, 2025, 12:23 PMAdd the ID Buzz to the death list.....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/electric-cars/vw-cancels-id-buzz-for-2026-as-dealers-warn-it-might-be-over/ar-AA1SGxkC?ocid=BingNewsVerp
Yeah but we are all supposed to be driving EVs within 9 years...how can such a high demand, super hyped, remake of a legend (VW bus), and have it not be successful?!
Well had they made it with a 2.0L diesel engine with 900kms of range with the exact same styling and a price point of around $50k and these things would be everywhere.
The main reason it didn't sell was the price. I recall the selling price was a lot higher than originally assumed/stated. So, that killed a lot of interest right off the bat.
The second reason is the abysmal range. It was pretty dumb to release an "adventure vehicle" with such an unusable range.
A PHEV with the 1.5T would have been a great combo.
They also should have been 7/8ths the size. They're massive.
Shame, because I'd love to have one as a family hauler.
Quote from: Tortoise on Dec 19, 2025, 01:49 PMThey also should have been 7/8ths the size. They're massive.
Shame, because I'd love to have one as a family hauler.
The "shorty" version sold in Europe might have been better, but reading 'Murica right was never one of VW's forte.
It must have cost VW a pretty penny to develop this vehicle, only to kill it off a year later. What a waste.
At least Ford has the F150d development, and all they need to work on was drivetrain tech. Still massive sunk cost, though.
Quote from: Tortoise on Dec 19, 2025, 01:49 PMThe main reason it didn't sell was the price. I recall the selling price was a lot higher than originally assumed/stated. So, that killed a lot of interest right off the bat.
The second reason is the abysmal range. It was pretty dumb to release an "adventure vehicle" with such an unusable range.
A PHEV with the 1.5T would have been a great combo.
They also should have been 7/8ths the size. They're massive.
Shame, because I'd love to have one as a family hauler.
I would still pick a TDI engine over a PHEV from VW. One they do very well, offer an excellent balance of fuel economy, performance, and reliability.
I don't think a shorter one would sell about the same, if they offered both versions I would assume sales would be stronger but not double the sales.
I love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI would still pick a TDI engine over a PHEV from VW. One they do very well, offer an excellent balance of fuel economy, performance, and reliability.
I am not sure modern TDIs are all that reliable. The emissions systems are pretty complex. I've had ~$3k of warranty work covered by my Dieselgate warranty. Which I guess isn't too bad, but it would erase any fuel savings.
Quote from: Tortoise on Dec 19, 2025, 06:38 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI would still pick a TDI engine over a PHEV from VW. One they do very well, offer an excellent balance of fuel economy, performance, and reliability.
I am not sure modern TDIs are all that reliable. The emissions systems are pretty complex. I've had ~$3k of warranty work covered by my Dieselgate warranty. Which I guess isn't too bad, but it would erase any fuel savings.
That's peanuts compared to some of the horror stories of VW group electric vehicles, all of which you would only want to own under warranty.
I have heard there are shops that have tunes and other adjustments for the last gen TDI engines that improve reliability while at the same time improving basically everything but emissions.
Quote from: GreatBigAbyss on Dec 19, 2025, 03:32 PMIt must have cost VW a pretty penny to develop this vehicle, only to kill it off a year later. What a waste.
At least Ford has the F150d development, and all they need to work on was drivetrain tech. Still massive sunk cost, though.
I don't think it's being killed off outside of NA. It's also been on the market for three years (aside from North America) and is on the same platform as a bunch of VW, Audi, and Ford EVs.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
Quote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
Quote from: Johnnymac on Dec 20, 2025, 04:21 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
I don't think we can equate VW (potentially?) canceling an EV model in the North American market as moving swiftly away from EVs.
Quote from: Oliver on Dec 22, 2025, 08:38 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 20, 2025, 04:21 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
I don't think we can equate VW (potentially?) canceling an EV model in the North American market as moving swiftly away from EVs.
Not just VW, Porsche is also making a hard left from EVs also. That's both ends of the VAG spectrum changing directions, looks to me they realized something over the last 2-3 years that has made them rethink going all in on EVs.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Dec 22, 2025, 04:35 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 22, 2025, 08:38 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 20, 2025, 04:21 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
I don't think we can equate VW (potentially?) canceling an EV model in the North American market as moving swiftly away from EVs.
Not just VW, Porsche is also making a hard left from EVs also. That's both ends of the VAG spectrum changing directions, looks to me they realized something over the last 2-3 years that has made them rethink going all in on EVs.
I agree. Every automaker who were near to "all in" on EVs are rethinking their position.
Meanwhile Kia is launching the EV4 with a lower msrp than the Fiat 500e... The Fiat always has rebates though. Nevertheless, with the EV4 sedan priced liked a Civic Hybrid and the EV5 priced like gas competitors, it will be interesting to watch.
Quote from: Blueprint on Dec 23, 2025, 08:08 AMMeanwhile Kia is launching the EV4 with a lower msrp than the Fiat 500e... The Fiat always has rebates though. Nevertheless, with the EV4 sedan priced liked a Civic Hybrid and the EV5 priced like gas competitors, it will be interesting to watch.
I expect it'll be the same outcome, a big boom of sales for the first 6-12 months followed by a massive slowdown, followed by rebates and low rates, followed by limited production, ending with it leaving our market.
Have to remember, a lot of customers trust a hybrid more than a full EV or even PHEV, it to mention this is a KIA product, so even less customer trust. I would take a Corolla or Civic Hybrid over it every day of the week.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Dec 22, 2025, 04:35 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 22, 2025, 08:38 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 20, 2025, 04:21 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
I don't think we can equate VW (potentially?) canceling an EV model in the North American market as moving swiftly away from EVs.
Not just VW, Porsche is also making a hard left from EVs also. That's both ends of the VAG spectrum changing directions, looks to me they realized something over the last 2-3 years that has made them rethink going all in on EVs.
To me that implies having fewer EV models which isn't the case. Porsche is still going to release all the EVs they had planned except that there will also be ICE and PHEV versions. As far as I know VW is going to keep building all their current EV models and they all seem to sell in decent numbers in the EU.
I do agree that the companies that hedged their bets (like BMW) are better off than those that created bespoke electrified platforms (like Mercedes and Porsche).
Our North American viewpoint is also skewed by what we see here. BEV market share in Germany, the UK, and China is over 30%.
Quote from: Oliver on Dec 23, 2025, 12:47 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 22, 2025, 04:35 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 22, 2025, 08:38 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 20, 2025, 04:21 PMQuote from: Oliver on Dec 20, 2025, 11:10 AMQuote from: Johnnymac on Dec 19, 2025, 05:17 PMI love how people say, it's not selling because of the price, no shit, the issue is at the price people want to pay they lose their ass on every sale, even worse than they currently are.
Hard to say if they are losing money or not (at least at or near MSRP) in the grand scheme of things. Supposedly VW expects EVs to reach profit margin parity with ICE vehicles next year.
I would be willing to bet they won't come close to that, otherwise why would they be moving so swiftly away from EVs?
I don't think we can equate VW (potentially?) canceling an EV model in the North American market as moving swiftly away from EVs.
Not just VW, Porsche is also making a hard left from EVs also. That's both ends of the VAG spectrum changing directions, looks to me they realized something over the last 2-3 years that has made them rethink going all in on EVs.
To me that implies having fewer EV models which isn't the case. Porsche is still going to release all the EVs they had planned except that there will also be ICE and PHEV versions. As far as I know VW is going to keep building all their current EV models and they all seem to sell in decent numbers in the EU.
I do agree that the companies that hedged their bets (like BMW) are better off than those that created bespoke electrified platforms (like Mercedes and Porsche).
Our North American viewpoint is also skewed by what we see here. BEV market share in Germany, the UK, and China is over 30%.
Ahh, yes of course they are still going to sell them, they already sink billions into developing all of them. But any of the ones they were thinking about developing are being moth balled and focus has shifted back to ICE vehicles.
Just because 25% of your lineup are EVs doesn't mean that is 25% of your sales come from EVs and definitely not 25% of profits. In most cases the profit margin on an EV is considerably less than a similarly priced ICE vehicle in their lineup.
I tend to think the reason behind most of those countries adoption of EVs is mostly government interference and possibly in chinas case the domestic product support.
Who could have predicted this not being the correct move.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70226046/porsche-718-cayman-boxster-ev-dead-report/
Quote from: Johnnymac on Feb 03, 2026, 10:36 AMWho could have predicted this not being the correct move.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70226046/porsche-718-cayman-boxster-ev-dead-report/
As I commented on c/d, the cars are fully developed and, from what we've read, already adapted to ICE propulsion. Making it a flex platform means the car itself can be re-used as an ICE, MHEV or PHEV vehicle, while still allowing for the full EV version down the road since the development is done. Taxes in some Euro markets will make the gas version twice as expensive as the EV variant would be though.
Quote from: Johnnymac on Feb 03, 2026, 10:36 AMWho could have predicted this not being the correct move.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70226046/porsche-718-cayman-boxster-ev-dead-report/
I hate to say I told you so....but I told you so!
Quote from: Blueprint on Feb 03, 2026, 02:30 PMQuote from: Johnnymac on Feb 03, 2026, 10:36 AMWho could have predicted this not being the correct move.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70226046/porsche-718-cayman-boxster-ev-dead-report/
As I commented on c/d, the cars are fully developed and, from what we've read, already adapted to ICE propulsion. Making it a flex platform means the car itself can be re-used as an ICE, MHEV or PHEV vehicle, while still allowing for the full EV version down the road since the development is done. Taxes in some Euro markets will make the gas version twice as expensive as the EV variant would be though.
Am I misremembering, wasn't this developed to be an EV only...until it was clear that was a poor direction and they had to find a way to adapt it to ICE.
Does it make you just a little worried about the end product? Look at the Dodge Charger EV, super compromised as an ICE due to it being mostly developed as an EV. Now of course I would bet that Porsche is much better at developing their way out of a problem but could this generation of Boxster/Cayman be compromised and thus not the step up customers expect from a new generation of a Porsche product.